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New Jayco dual axle toy hauler PUP
When I was at the Starcraft factory, I saw this, thinking it was a Starcraft 36RT but it fact it was a Jayco with their color schemes. Haven't seen it come up anywhere so maybe I seen a prereleased model. BTW, they were/are making some of the Jayco PUPs at the Starcraft factory until they shut it down. No reference of the big Jayco toyhauler PUP yet on their website.
Also, if you haven't noticed by my signature, hopefully I'll be the new proud papa of a brand new '08 Jayco Jay Flight 19BH (Whole Wheat Interior). It's one of the few floorplans that has a separate sofa plus the ability to sleep 7 people (actually more than my PUP). It's actually the 'exact' same size as my PUP when it's opened, 22.5' (measured from bottom of bunkends).
Since I've had good luck with Starcraft people, I feel I'm safe with Jayco, especially since one of those same people will be working at the Jayco factory when the Starcraft factory closes.
Not a done deal yet, and it may not go through as the last TT deal, but I hoping. I'm a pretty hard negoiator but it looks like a deal as it stands, TT unseen. If I get it, I'll be having repairs done at the Jayco factory just as I have been with the Starcraft factory with the PUP.
Have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/30/08 09:43pm |
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RE: Bed size on older Colemans?
The length is 77", and the width is 70". It's not a true King. The length is standard for almost all PUPs since 1990. You probably just don't remember or are sleeping different now.
You should be sleeping from side wall to side wall. That's the 77" length. If you are sleeping from front to back, you are sleeping on the bed sideways with it's 70" width.
Have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/29/08 01:10pm |
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RE: Air shocks?
And again raising the rear end does not transfer more than a few pounds of the original front end weight. Suspension aids of any type will not return the front end weight to it's original quantity or anything near it; no matter what the suspension.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
By raising the rear body and frame back to it's original position, that body and frame weight in the rear will stop pulling 'down' the frame and body weight from the front end. By putting the rear of the vehicle back up to a level position, the original body and frame weight will stop transfering body and frame weight from the front of the vehicle to the rear. The CARGO WEIGHT will remain at the rear of the vehicle on the rear axle however.
Air suspensions have been used on trucks for a long time for 'cargo' concerns with pulling original body and frame weight from the front axle. Keeping a level vehicle allows the front axle to have the weight it needs for safe driving. This has nothing to do with trailer towing, but hauling cargo. However, hitch weight is cargo weight, it can just be better equalized through both axles (opposed to just the rear axle) with a weight distributing hitch.
Have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/29/08 12:45pm |
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RE: Laminated build vs Stick & Tin
I guess from a manufacturering standpoint, a wood laminate wall would be more inexpensive than aluminum, slightly more heavy but less expensive. It still allows less labor cost as the laminate walls are prefab. I guess the wood laminate would have advantages over aluminum with less temperature transfer (have been told by dealerships that aluminum laminate walls can even have condensation in the right conditions) and less vibrations (more of an issue with motorhomes than with stationary RVs).
As far as longevity, even if someone only plans to keep their RV for 10 years, I don't think that even makes a difference. Most RVs that have delamination are less than 5 years old, from what I've seen and from what I've been told. Many people are unaware or don't care about maintanence. Even if you are proactive in maintaining your unit, sometimes seals 'look' good when they are not.
Jayflight build Click on fullsize, then click on the picture to enlarge it for reading.
Have a good one.
P.S. I hope this post stays.
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Mike Up
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11/29/08 12:23pm |
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RE: Laminated build vs Stick & Tin
What happened to my post, it was here, now it's vanished!
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Mike Up
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11/29/08 11:07am |
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RE: Air shocks?
I think the information here is not entirely correct. With vehicles that have coil over shock suspensions, as newer Ford Explorers, air shocks are the correct suspension upgrade. With these designs, the shock mount carries the entire load of the suspension. Therefore an air shock is what's needed for combatting rear end squat with heavier loading, AS LONG AS YOU DON'T EXCEED THE GRAWR (gross rear axle weight rating). In fact on vehicles with coil over shock suspensions, you can't use air lift systems because the air bag goes inside of the coil spring. Can't go inside when the shock is already there.
Air lifts are good for a Nissan Pathfinder where the coil spring is empty, Air shocks are good for coil over shock suspensions as the new Ford Explorers.
When carrying heavy loads that pull down the back of the truck, the normal unloaded weight ratio of the frame and body of the truck will shift. Lifting up the rear body and frame back to normal levels puts the normal unloaded weight back to the front axle and relieves the back axle. However the new loaded cargo weight is still on the rear axle opposed to the original unloaded weight. However getting the original unloaded weight back to the front axle will give the steering/driving that's needed for safe operation. With air actuated systems, the original unloaded weight that was on the front axle will go back to the front axle. However the loaded cargo weight will stay on the rear axle and not go to the front axle.
A weight distribution hitch uses spring bars (think of them as 2 pry bars pushing the rear end up, instead of air actuated systems. By doing this, is also distributes the loaded tongue cargo weight to the front axle IN ADDITION to the original unloaded weight. It also distributes the loaded tongue cargo weight back to the campers axles.
For equalizing the loaded cargo weight and the original unloaded weight, between the front and rear truck axles, the WDH is what's needed.
To get the original unloaded weight back to the front axle for safe driving, air lift bags or air shocks will do that. THEY WILL NOT REDISTIBUTE LOADED CARGO WEIGHT THOUGH.
Have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/29/08 10:15am |
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RE: Laminated build vs Stick & Tin
Get what you like and don't hit anything.
I like your choosen lay out I could not do with out a couch.
I spent some time earlier this year in my TT and after a few weeks
without the couch I would have been nuts sitting at the table.
The couch was a necessity for sleeping room. I needed at least 2 double sleeping areas. The dinette is only a twin size bed at 71" long. The sofa is 71" long also but is 46" wide. We can sleep 6 - 7 people should the need arise. I also wanted separate sitting area away from the dinette but didn't want a big camper.
Have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/28/08 08:48pm |
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RE: Hopefully a new '08 Jayco Jay Flight 19BH
Strange, our friends have a 2009 Jayco Pu with a build date of 05/2008 on the placard.
Good luck with your choice.
Jayco was building both 08 and 09 according to the dealer for some reason. They made an agreement if the dealer would take so many 08s, they would get a discount off of motorhomes. Guess Jayco had materials for the 08s and they wanted to continue to build them.
Have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/28/08 02:10pm |
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RE: Hopefully a new '08 Jayco Jay Flight 19BH
Take my 2 cents for what it's worth -
I'd take a 2009. Jayco has been building 2009's since April/May of this year.
Good luck.
The 08 according to them has a build date of June '08 so it is pretty much new.
The 09 models are $2200 more MSRP. I'm hoping to get the 08 ~$1500 less than the 09 due to the increase in price on the 09.
I don't plan trading because the 19BH is my favorite flooplan. It also is light enough to be pulled easily by my truck anywhere. It also is short enough to get into the campsites I like the most. I didn't want anything bigger or heavier. This is pretty much the model I've been eyeing for years as my favorite.
Thanks and have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/28/08 10:20am |
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RE: Laminated build vs Stick & Tin
I have a fiberglass outer shell on an aluminum frame, and I'm confused when you say the inner walls are laminated onto the outer walls. The frame is 2" aluminum, and there is insulation between the inner and outer walls. I wasn't aware there was a trailer being sold nowadays that has no insulation. Will someone please enlighten me!
Just as the post above. I went on a factory tour and was able to see the laminated trailer being built. The laminated walls are either aluminum or wood framing, with foam insulation between the frame members, the outter filon wall is glued to the frameing and the interior walls are also glued to the framing. The walls are sandwiched together, pressed, and glued into the laminated walls I'm talking about.
Stick build is the same as a house or mobile home is built. Wood framing, standard R7 insulation is put in the wall. The interior wallboard is attached using fasteners. The exterior aluminum wall is also attached using fasteners.
Don't confuse wood laminated walls with stick and tin build, they are not the same. They are still laminated and will probably sustain more damage should a leak happen.
Have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/28/08 09:26am |
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RE: Hopefully a new '08 Jayco Jay Flight 19BH
Thanks everyone for you posts. I have another question. Is there any storage under the sofa??? I'm hoping there is.
My coworkers have really made me think about going with the 2009 model because it has the storage cabinets going from the microwave all the way across the front. The 2009 19BH is simliar to the 20BH with cabinets, as they seemed to discontinue the 20BH. It was the same floorplan. The new 09 19BH is nearly the same as the 20BH with all of it's added features, but then the 09 over the 08, did go up ~$2000.
I just want to make sure I'll have enough storage with the '08. After looking, the '08 19BH looks to have less storage than the smaller '06 Starcraft NXP 20DBB, I almost bought a few months ago, had. Then again the 20DBB had no oven, and only had a single door refrigerator.
Thanks and have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/27/08 01:48pm |
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RE: Laminated build vs Stick & Tin
I prefer Filon over aluminum framing. I'll keep up on the caulking and honestly it is just as important on an aluminum and stick unit cause the framing will rot out. Filon can be repaired between the studs, just like wallboard. DOn't ask me how I know...... But I don't have to worry about the framework of my trailer rotting out unseen.
How did you repair it as I've been told it can't be repaired in external sections. I've been told only the fiberglass can be repaired depending on the severity?
Thanks and have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/27/08 12:02pm |
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RE: Jayco/Durango combo..opinions
One of the reasons I wanted a truck over an SUV was the longer wheelbase for cargo and to help elimate trailer sway. I was looking at my Sport Trac and the 2008/2007 Durangos. What killed it on the Durangos was the slanting 3rd row seats that eliminated cargo area and the shorter wheelbase.
I loved the Durango for it's tow capacity but I wanted cargo room and wheelbase more.
If I were to go with a Durango, get no less than an Equalizer brand hitch or the Reese equivant (forget it's name) and depending, you may need to get LT tires.
Since I was looking at 26' (bumper to hitch) and less and I have a 131" wheelbase, I elected to go with a Reese WDH with dual cam sway control.
I'm trying to buy a Jayco 19BH bunkhouse that's 22.5' long.
Good luck in making it work.
Have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/27/08 11:54am |
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Laminated build vs Stick & Tin
What's everyone's thought on the better?? I've chosen Stick & Tin for a few reasons I mentioned. I'm just wondering what everyones experience has.
I went on a manufacturer tour. They stated each has their pluses and minuses but Stick & Tin is much more inexpensive to fix and a lot less damage could happen if an unseen leak happens.
However they also said, the aluminum panels aren't as robust as filon and could be more expensive to repair. BUT, depending on the damage, as clipping a pole, the wall may need to be replaced on a laminate build where perhaps only the aluminum siding would need replacing on the Stick & Tin.
Also, if a delaminated build has a water leak and it is fixed, the damage on the laminated wall may not show up until down the road, even after the leak is fixed.
This was from a repair guy that gave me the tour.
He also stated though the laminated walls are easier to clean, don't dent, weigh less, and look more attractive. He made it clear with laminated build, caulking must be checked continously to avoid a future delamination problem.
I came away with the Stick and Tin be the more robust design for longevity.
Now I spoke to a salesman and he felt between the builds, that Stick and Tin holds up better because he had quite a few delaminations on their used lots.
Now I work with a someone who use to build them. He feels that repairs aren't that bad on a delamination build if it's interior wallboard is not part of the delamination, but separately added. He then said sections can be repaired from the inside along as there is matching wallboard still available. He said if it was laminated wallboard, that type of interior repair couldn't be done. Most of all the campers I see, have the interior wallboard laminated to the wall.
Appearance is one thing but I was talking to a repairman who was working on a 22' laminated build camper. The wall had to be replaced because they hit something and the wall was dented and cracked. The wall was ~$4000 and the labor was just under $4000. That's $8000!! For what I thought was very minor damage. I saw the old wall laying next to the trailer which had the new wall installed. It wasn't totalled because the trailer was new.
That ungodly cost put the fear into me right there! $8000 for minor damage!!
So what has everyone's experiences been. I know of the high cost RVs, laminated filon walls are the standard.
BTW, I haven't really found my favorite floorplan on to many models but Stick & Tin but there were several laminated build floorplans that were very similar.
Here's the camper I'm trying to buy right now but it's not a done deal yet.
http://inlinethumb54.webshots.com/26549/2273707250093531129S500x500Q85.jpg
Have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/27/08 11:42am |
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Hopefully a new '08 Jayco Jay Flight 19BH
Wish me luck, the last Starcraft NXP 20DBB deal fell through. Actually this is the camper I wanted but that dealer wanted a new price for a used 08 19BH.
Overall, the difference between my 2007 Starcraft 2406 trade and 2008 Jayco 19BH will be at worst $6200 or at best $5500. We aren't really looking at trailer price or trade in price, but the actual difference they'll give. To me these prices are good but financing is not good for RVs right now. Interest rates are up and term lengths are down. Hopefully I see a new trailer.
I really liked the 08 but the 09 will be roughly $1000 to $1500 more and it does offer some added things. Mainly cabinets in the front corner and across the front of the camper where the 08 has just a mirror. Don't know, but all those cabinets 'looks' as though it could make the camper feel crowded and cramped. The discontinued 20BH (flight G2) has this but it added about 300 lbs to the camper weight and some hitch weight yet the 09 19BH has no weight increases. Seems weird. They also add on the 09, access doors on the dinette benches, and a privacy curtain by the beds. The MSRP on the 09 is about $1800 more so if I can get $1500 cheaper on the 08, I'll feel good.
I liked this because it's stick and tin. Went on a factory tour and a coworker use to work at the indiana factories. Laminates are great with the filon if no water gets in. Hail damage and cleaning aren't a really a factor but if water gets in, delamination could cause over $5000 in complete wall replacement. Coworker said they could do interior section repairs if the wallboard wasn't part of the delamination. On some, the wall board or interior board is.
The tour guide, a salesman from another dealership, and even the coworker felt for longevity, stick and tin was the way to go. Repairs are fairly inexpensive so that's what I was looking for.
As far as the weight, it's really only about 200 - 300 lbs heavier than other makers wood and aluminum laminated walls, roof, and floor.
Hows everyones experience with this model, it seems popular here??
I like it because it offers a lot of seating area, tons of sleeping areas up to 7 people, yet it's only 23' long, the same as my Pop Up setup.
Wish me good luck on the deal, my luck has lately been pretty bad where campers are concerned.
Thanks and have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/26/08 07:22pm |
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Coachmen sells out to Forest River
See post here.
Guess not only are there now Forest River Palomino PUPs but soon will be Coachmen Clipper/Viking PUPs.
The RV industry is going to hell, back to tents seems like a good choice now.
BTW, there will be no true Starcrafts anymore as well. After going to the factory, everyone that makes the product a Starcraft is getting laid off including the engineers, designers, and tarp makers. They will be Jaycos with a Starcraft label.
So we're down to 3 companies now, Coleman, Forest River, and Jayco. Not good as the economy is still at the peak, looking downward as it goes.
Have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/22/08 09:19am |
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RE: Jayco closes Starcraft production facility.
If I recall correctly, the LaGrange facility was a sewing shop for canvas and I don't know if it was closed. I could be wrong.
The sewing facility and tent repair was in Topeka as they just repaired my tent.
Have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/20/08 05:18pm |
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RE: Jayco closes Starcraft production facility.
Note: Starcraft is not closing. It is closing one plant. Downsizing is the name of the game right now.
I've talked to the Starcraft people getting laid off. Yes, Starcraft is closing except for a very small handful of people being transfered to Jayco. Starcraft is only "1" Plant.
Everything that was Starcraft is being sold, closed, or laid off. Jayco employees will continue to build and service RVs they label Starcraft.
The 'true' Starcraft RV is now dead.
Have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/20/08 05:15pm |
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RE: Starcraft closing it's plant - combining plant with Jayco
Mike, we've only had our new camper about 5 months. We were planning on taking ours in for service after the first of the year. Do you know if we can use our dealer or do we have to look for a Jayco dealer? Our dealer is 7 hours away - but, it's always better, IMO, to use the dealer where you buy the camper if possible. We were planning on a trip up there before our warranty runs out, to just have a few little things looked at.
The name is staying but the people who made Starcraft are going to be gone. As I said very, very few people from Starcraft will remain and be transferred to Middlebury. The Starcraft named product then will be made by Jayco. I'm sure part sourcing will make it's way from Jayco to Starcraft. In other words, no separate Starcraft design and parts. It may still be it's own brand, but after seeing what they're doing, I highly doubt it. In fact, I bet it will be Jacyo campers but Starcraft may be a model line. Just speculation.
There's no doubt warranty will be supported but it's up in the air as months ago, my Starcraft dealer could NOT get Jayco parts or do authorized warranty repairs. You had to go to a Jayco dealer. Also in my area, there aren't many Starcraft dealers as many have folded up from the bad economy. Sad, a company that's been around ~50 years, is now going.
I would say the Jayco factory would do your work as they are now going to be Starcraft as well. The Jayco factory is relatively close to Topeka, being Northwest of the Starcraft factory. Close as in motor vehicle close. Of course I guess the Amish concern doesn't matter as they are all being laid off anyhow.:R
Your Starcraft dealer shouldn't be affected by the plant cloosing at all. However as I said, many Starcraft dealers here have folded and what was once a good dealer I had, has turned to lousy quality service that I won't gamble on again. So I'll have to go to the new Jayco/Starcraft factory.
I wouldn't go to the Starcraft factory as there's a lot of frustration. I wouldn't want a disgruntled worker on my camper, although right now, I don't have a choice.
Good luck and have a good one.
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Mike Up
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11/19/08 06:00pm |
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RE: Starcraft closing it's plant - combining plant with Jayco
Talked to Starcraft today, much sadder than the article eludes to.
There likely will be no more Starcraft. Only a very few (handful) people are transferring with many already laid off since Monday. There will be many, many more layoffs. Unfortunately, some of the excellent people I have had the pleasure of doing business with, will be laid off. They were very very sad about it and all I could do is say I'm sorry and wish them good luck in finding other employment. IMO, Jayco Corp is making a mistake, Starcraft is the bread and butter in PUPs, not Jayco, as is evident by all the Starcraft owners and even over the years, the number of differing floorplans. They should have transferred all of their PUP division staff, or kept them in operation.
The sad part is that the plant will likely never reopen as everything in the plant is being liquidated.
Even though the people I've been doing business with, know their jobs are ending, they were still offering me the top of the line service that they have always done. Hopefully everything will be right on the camper when I pick it up as it will surely be a hassle with the staff being gone, that helped through this repair.
Talk to you soon.
*edited for personal reasons
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Mike Up
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11/19/08 03:59pm |
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